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Talli Sperry: Hello, I’m Talli Sperry. Welcome to this evening’s webcast. We know that our Ultra High Net Worth clients tend to be concerned about six key pillars when considering their wealth, so tonight we’ll be focused on charitable giving, your family, and your estate plan. Joining us this evening to discuss this very important topic are Jane Greenfield, President of Donor-Advised Fund, Vanguard Charitable; Al Weikel, a Senior Relationship Manager with Vanguard Flagship Select Services; and Kevin Wick, a Senior Wealth Planning Strategist with Vanguard Advice Services. Welcome Jane, Kevin, and Al.

Jane Greenfield: Thanks, Talli.

Speaker: Thanks, Talli.

Talli Sperry: We’ve received a lot of questions in advance, and we’ll also be answering your live questions. Before we begin, there are two items I’d like to point out. There’s a widget at the bottom of your screen for accessing technical help. It’s the blue widget, and that’s on your left. And if you’d like to read thought leadership material by Vanguard and Vanguard Charitable that relates to tonight’s topic or view replays of past webcasts, click on the green Resource List widget; that’s on the far right of the player. Sound good?

Speaker: Great.

Jane Greenfield: Sounds good.

Talli Sperry: All right, before we get to our discussion, we’d like to ask our audience a question. So on your screen now, you’ll see the first poll question which is which of the following is your primary vehicle for charitable giving: a private foundation, a donor-advised fund, a charitable trust, or multiple vehicles? And by that we mean you might employ a number of those. So please respond now, and we’ll share your answers in just a few minutes.

So while we’re waiting for the results, why don’t we chat about one of the questions the audience presubmitted. Jane, perhaps you could start us off with discussing donor-advised funds.

Jane Greenfield: Sure, I’ll tell you what a donor-advised fund is or a DAF as we often call it. They are very flexible, cost-effective, easy-to-use charitable giving tools that allow you to give both today and tomorrow.

Talli Sperry: Great.

Jane Greenfield: They are really effective because they separate the timing of your tax deduction from your granting decisions, and here’s how it works. If you are philanthropically inclined, you open a DAF account, perhaps at Vanguard Charitable, and when you make your donation, you immediately get a charitable deduction because we are a charity.

Talli Sperry: Wow, so this year, right now-

Jane Greenfield: Right now.

Talli Sperry: -if we opened it, we would get the deduction.

Jane Greenfield: Absolutely.

Talli Sperry: For the full amount donated.

Jane Greenfield: For the full amount of your contribution into the account, absolutely.

Talli Sperry: Okay.

Jane Greenfield: Now, you can donate cash, appreciated securities. You can even donate illiquid securities, such as private securities or hedge funds or even real estate.

Talli Sperry: That’s really interesting.

Jane Greenfield: But once the money goes into the donor-advised fund, you actually lose legal control of it; but you retain three important advisory privileges. The advisory privileges are you get to tell us how you want to invest the money.

Talli Sperry: Always important, right?

Jane Greenfield: Always important talking to Vanguard. And those investments grow tax free because we’re a charity.

Talli Sperry: Great.

Jane Greenfield: You tell us how you want to grant the money, and we do so on your behalf.

Talli Sperry: So that’s the giving of the money, right, to a charity?

Jane Greenfield: That’s the giving from the account to operating charities.

Talli Sperry: Right.

Jane Greenfield: And then you also have an opportunity to tell us who your successors to the account are so we know what to do with the account after you pass.

Talli Sperry: That’s wonderful. That’s really well thought out.

I’m hearing that our results are in from your poll, so let’s check those; and we’ll look at the other two vehicles.

So this is interesting. It looks like we got the majority of people will use either multiple vehicles or donor-advised funds. Very few are using charitable trusts. Jane, do you feel like that’s consistent with what you see in research?

Jane Greenfield: Yes, and, actually, you know, it would be really interesting if we could go back in time and ask that same question five years ago because I think you would see some movements across the vehicles from say private foundations to donor-advised funds and to multiple vehicles, because we see that quite a bit. The big trend that we see is individuals deciding to close private foundations and move to donor-advised funds or close private foundations, not close private foundations, but move some money from a private foundation into a DAF so that they have multiple vehicles. And that’s because of some of the benefits that a DAF has over a private foundation.

Talli Sperry: That’s really interesting. And before we go further there, I’d love to have us discuss the charitable trust and also the private foundation. So, Al, maybe you can start us off with private foundations, just a general definition for our audience.

Al Weikel: Sure, just keeping it high level, private foundation is a nonprofit organization where the contributions typically come from an individual or a family or a business; and it’s usually run by trustees or directors. And the funds are invested and then the proceeds are then given to charitable causes.

So kind of similar, a little bit more complex than the donor-advised fund Jane talked about, but a similar type of vehicle, just on the private side.

Talli Sperry: Thanks, it’s good to differentiate these so we really understand our options. And, Kevin, can you talk a little bit about charitable trusts?

Kevin Wick: Certainly, and both the foundation and charitable trusts are a little bit more complex, which may answer some of what we learned in the poll question. I think generally people look for some simpler answers in their financial lives. But specifically, the charitable trust is an irrevocable trust, so generally one that can’t be changed, that involves a charity as a beneficiary, either at the beginning or at the end. And it’s that charitable beneficiary that allows you to get a tax deduction for a portion of the funds that are contributed to that trust.

Talli Sperry: That’s really helpful, thanks, Kevin.

So keeping these vehicles in mind and keeping the fact that we need to have conversations about these vehicles, I know Jane mentioned successors, I’d like us to move to our second poll question, which will focus on how to include your heirs in discussions. We hear a lot from clients in this space, so let’s look at your second poll question, and that’s asking do you have charitable conversations with your family? So yes; no; no, but I plan to; or no, and I don’t know how to initiate those discussions, which we often will hear about. So please respond now, and we’ll get to your answers in just a few minutes.

So, Jane, as the results come in, maybe you can answer one of those key questions I know we all hear from our clients, which is what’s the right age to involve kids in charitable giving conversations?

Jane Greenfield: Well I’ll say there’s no wrong age to involve kids.

Talli Sperry: Okay. Okay, that’s good.

Jane Greenfield: If you have not spoken to your kids, jump in. But, optimally, I think the younger the better. If you have an opportunity to discuss and maybe even have experiences with younger kids and then consistently do that throughout their lifetime, you’re more likely to get someone who’s really inclined to be philanthropic as an adult.

So we think the younger the better. The one thing I would say is if your first attempt in the discussion or the experience is a bad one, don’t abandon the plan. Try something new, and I speak from experience because we had, right out of the gate when our kids were very young, we had a complete crash and burn. My kids were five and three, and I heard that there was a church that was accepting donations of Halloween candy the day after Halloween. The thought being there were kids in a neighborhood where they couldn’t go out after dark to trick or treat, so they were going to take that candy and have kind of a weekday, during-the-day trick or treat party.

Talli Sperry: Very sweet.

Jane Greenfield: Very sweet. So I thought what better way for my kids to start their philanthropic journey than to give some of their candy, right?

Talli Sperry: What they have makes total sense, right?

Jane Greenfield: Makes total sense. Wrong. It was a disaster. We said they could keep ten pieces and they could give away the rest, and you would have thought there was excessive abuse going on in the Greenfield household because there was crying and it was terrible. And so we decided to abandon that plan; that certainly wasn’t a great way to start the journey. And, instead, we did other things with the kids that were more fun and rewarding and less psychologically damaging.

Talli Sperry: All right, well, and I know your kids are very charitably inclined; so, obviously, the damage didn’t go too far.

Jane Greenfield: They’re good people today, 20 and 22, good people.

Talli Sperry: Oh, thanks.

Al Weikel: They survived.

Jane Greenfield: They survived.

Talli Sperry: Yes, we all survive. All right, so thanks for sharing that story, Jane. Let’s check in a little bit on what our audience is saying. So it actually, this is really interesting. It looks like the majority of our audience, 63% of you, are having charitable conversations with your family. So kudos to you. That’s wonderful. And it looks like about 9% are struggling to figure out how, another 10 to 12% either don’t or are planning to, so some interesting results there.

So kind of continuing along these lines about talking to our family, let’s kick it to you, Al. I know we have a question from Robert in Memphis, Tennessee, I believe. And he’s asking, “How do you involve adult children?” So we talked about kids. How about adult children?

Al Weikel: Yeah, well, you know, I would agree with Jane. It’s best to start early, but if you’re trying to get your kids and now adult children involved, a couple things I’ve seen in working with clients that have worked well is, number one, respecting all sort of values and passions that your kids have. You know, if mom or dad or whatever the situation was have been sort of running the charitable program for a while, chances are they’re sort of pushing the values that they’ve always thought were most important.

But if you’re going to involve adult children, again, you have to be respectful of these other passions and other values to get them participating in this. And another way I’ve seen that actually be very successful, when you say adult children, sometimes these adult children are late 40s, 50s with their own kids, maybe they didn’t involve their kids in the charitable planning up front to get it really sort of embedded in their value system and their family value system, but guess what, perfect opportunity to then have these conversations with the grandkids. Bring in their kids’ kids. And if their kids’ kids are participating, the grandkids, chances are that’ll pull their parents, those adult kids into the conversation for the many benefits you can have from family philanthropic planning.

Talli Sperry: I love where you’re going with the grandkids, and I think that’s interesting because one of our foundational beliefs is that involvement should be age appropriate. And we just got a live question, and this is from Regina; and she’s saying, “Simple discussions with young adult offspring, any advice on how to start them, how to make it real for them?” Kevin, perhaps you could chime in here.

Kevin Wick: I think what I’ve seen in working with clients is find a way to connect with them. Find an interest or a passion of theirs and encourage them to do a little homework, do a little investigating, a digging on their own, and then come back as a family and talk through those and then perhaps look at maybe it’s something that’s worthy to donate as a family perhaps. So getting them involved in something that is meaningful to them is a great way to start engaging.

Talli Sperry: That does. That works very effectively. I know I’ve gotten my niece and nephew involved in some research, and it does help to spur that passion, doesn’t it?

Kevin Wick: Yeah.

Talli Sperry: They get excited about where they’re giving.

Al Weikel: Talli, if I may add to that-

Talli Sperry: Yeah.

Al Weikel: -I agree with Kevin wholeheartedly, and I would say what I’ve seen with clients is using the conversation with young kids around an allowance, which can start at five, six, seven years old. And what they’ll do is they’ll have not only a portion of the allowance that’s allotted towards saving and spending but also giving, so introducing that giving option early on in the conversation.

And that can look different ways. I was just with a client a couple of weeks ago where it’s very young kids, and they are doing the giving. The family actually matches the amount that goes into the giving bucket, so that’s kind of neat.

Talli Sperry: That’s great.

Jane Greenfield: That’s a match program at a young age.

Al Weikel: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Talli Sperry: Yes, yes.

Al Weikel: And then they buy books and donate them to kids that are less fortunate in the area. So I think that’s saving, spending, and giving is another great way, age appropriate way for young kids to get them started early.

Talli Sperry: A lot of really creative ideas, so there’s a lot to choose from and many different options and tactics. As long as we’re making sure that they are age appropriate and they work with the people we know and love, right?

Jane Greenfield: And I think it’s great to hear how many of the Vanguard clients have had conversations with their kids, their families-

Talli Sperry: I agree.

Jane Greenfield: -thus far, and others are really interested in jumping in because by the time they’re adults, it becomes actually important to have the conversation, particularly if you want them to play a role after you die.

So, for example, we had a client who passed away, unfortunately, and he had one daughter who didn’t even realize he had a donor-advised fund account. And it was sizeable. It was a multi-million dollar account. She was in her, I’d say late 20s, early 30s. At a time when she was really a lot more focused on building her career and hadn’t really thought about her own charitable passions, and so she found this account to be a little bit more of a burden than an opportunity. She didn’t really have any experience in giving and that type of thing. So I think having the conversation and figuring out how to get your kids to join you in the granting discussions and perhaps even make them interested parties on a DAF account or get them involved in the physical granting, it gives them experience and sets them up for success.

Talli Sperry: I think it’s really important because we do want to minimize, not overwhelm, to make sure that the legacy really continues.

You know, we’re getting a couple of live questions around donor-advised funds and what’s the dollar threshold where a donor-advised fund could make sense in terms of outright checks chosen to charities and then donor-advised funds versus foundations. Is there an amount that’s a breakpoint that would point us in one direction or another? Jane, do you want to kick us off and then, Kevin, maybe you want to chime in?

Jane Greenfield: Sure. Well if you look at different donor-advised fund companies, they have different minimums to get an account started. Ours at Vanguard Charitable is $25,000. We believe that below that, oftentimes people are more in a scenario where they are writing just direct checks out of their checkbook year after year.

Talli Sperry: So we want it to be worthwhile for the investment to grow, right?

Jane Greenfield: Yeah, because really what you want to do is a donor-advised fund is a great opportunity to not only give in the moment during the year but also save to give. So what a lot of our clients will do is they’re very engaged in giving throughout the year, but they also may save to give for a big gift for one charity or they may save to ensure that they have money in retirement when their income stops, to continue to support the charities they care about. Or, finally, they may decide that this is going to be a legacy-giving vehicle that allows them to get the family involved with giving responsibly as well.

So I think there are a variety of reasons why giving both today and tomorrow are important, but typically there needs to be some money towards doing both. And we think $25,000 is a good start.

Talli Sperry: That’s great. That’s very helpful. Thank you. Kevin, anything to add from your end?

Kevin Wick: I would agree with Jane that the timing of your giving is going to help dictate what choices you make as far as the vehicles. As we mentioned before, a foundation tends to be a more complex vehicle for giving; and typically you’ll need significant dollars in order to make that worthwhile from an expense perspective.

You can also get very strategic with your giving. A donor-advised fund is an opportunity to put money in currently but then give it to your ultimate charity at some point down the road. So if you’re looking to make some gifts, maybe it’s a tactical tax-planning decision perhaps. You can make gifts currently and then decide who the ultimate charitable beneficiary is at some point later on. Very flexible in that regard.

Talli Sperry: That’s really helpful. And I do want to get us into how do we evaluate charities because we get a lot of questions around that. But I’d like to go to one more live one before we go there. Michael is asking, “Can you compare the pros and cons of giving versus bequests upon death from a tax standpoint?” So, Kevin, maybe I’ll move this one back to you. So we’re talking a lot about when you give, today, tomorrow. What about from a tax standpoint?

Kevin Wick: Yeah, gifting during lifetime, gifting currently versus giving at death, both have great end impacts in terms of your charitable cause of choice. Specifically from a tax standpoint, when you give during your lifetime, you have the opportunity for an income tax benefit, an income tax deduction; and that’s something you cannot get when you’re making bequests on death.

When you’re giving during lifetime, you’re reducing the size of your estate. And if you happen to have an estate large enough where you may be paying estate taxes, now you’re getting not only an income tax benefit but an estate tax benefit by reducing your estate.

The giving at death gets you an estate tax benefit, again, if you have assets large enough. All charitable donations, contributions are fully tax deductible; but the big difference between lifetime and giving at death is going to be the availability of that income tax deduction.

Talli Sperry: That’s great. Thanks, Kevin.

So let’s start to move into a little bit more detail. So we have Qwing from North Las Vegas is asking us what should be in a charitable plan. Al, could you speak to that a bit from what you hear with your clients?

Al Weikel: Sure, talking about what should be in a charitable plan. I’d say the first thing, and I may be taking a little bit of liberty here, is full family involvement. I mean, we really do see when families get involved with the strategic philanthropic plan that there’s just so many benefits. It’s such a great place to practice the family’s values in a safe way, younger generations to learn about money and teamwork.

So, first and foremost is involve the family. And in families that I work with that are second generation and third generation, we see that there’s a lot of comradery there. It’s not the absolute only key to success if multigenerational wealth transfer is one of your goals, but in studies and in seeing it personally with clients, it’s definitely one of the main ingredients in the recipe for success.

But if a family does want to actually sort of start the plan, generally what that will look like is they’ll sit down and they’ll talk about their values, their passions. Sometimes families will go so far as to talk about a mission or perhaps a higher purpose for their wealth. Once they have that figured out and they respect each individual’s wishes and passions, they come together on some things that the whole family can agree on. And that’s a great bond. That creates family connectedness and family harmony, things that can be successful for, again, long-term wealth transfer.

And then they’ll figure out where they want to focus and how they want to focus. Do they want to focus on established organizations? Do they want to seed start-up organizations, start-up charitable organizations? There’s lots of different ways you can go from there, and then they get into some of the execution questions around which vehicle do I use.

So, first and foremost, involve the whole family; and then take the necessary steps to execute appropriately.

Talli Sperry: Yeah, I appreciate the comprehensive perspective; and I think Vanguard Charitable has some resources. So in your green Resource widget, you’ll see a link to Vanguard Charitable; and that is a great website, Jane. I explored it before the webcast, and it has so many tools and insights. So if you’re looking for recaps of this discussion or perhaps suggestions on ways you could approach these topics or think them through, it’s a great spot to go.

Jane Greenfield: Yeah, we even have a worksheet for a family planning discussion, like what Al just mentioned.

Talli Sperry: Awesome. Perfect, perfect.

Kevin Wick: And I’ll just emphasize again the importance of those discussions and simply having a plan. As Al mentioned earlier, it’s such a great training ground, a proving ground for successful wealth transfer from one generation to the next. You get them involved in understanding some about finances, some about investing, and some about giving to others and finding things that are, again, you’re passionate about, that you care about. That leads to success later on down the road.

Talli Sperry: That’s great.

Jane Greenfield: We find our clients find out a little bit more about each other as they go through this because charitable giving tends to be based on your experiences through life at times, so.

Talli Sperry: So you really get to know those family members and actually move forward in creating a legacy together through charitable giving.

Jane Greenfield: Yes.

Al Weikel: Correct.

Talli Sperry: Great, that’s fun. All right, so these are wonderful insights; and in this next segment, I’d really like to spend some time answering your questions. So we want to focus on what’s most important to you.

So we’ll probably spend a little time talking about comparing charitable vehicles and also tax implications because we’ve got a lot of questions there.

So can I put you guys through a bit of a lightning round of questions form our audience?

Jane Greenfield: Sure.

Speaker: Sure.

Talli Sperry: All right, awesome. So, Al, we’ll start with you. So Dennis from New York City is asking, “What are the tax advantages of donor-advised funds?”

Al Weikel: Well the main tax advantage is, you know, Kevin alluded to it earlier, but for the donor-advised fund is that if you don’t know what to do with the funds today, you can book the deduction in the current year and then decide at some point in the future where you want to donate those dollars.

Talli Sperry: And that’s really helpful because we can let it grow too, right?

Al Weikel: Absolutely.

Talli Sperry: Yeah.

Jane Greenfield: Yeah, it grows tax free. Plus you can donate appreciated securities, which makes the entire experience even more tax effective.

Al Weikel: Agree.

Talli Sperry: So, Bob, from Dushore asks, “Can my will state that the executors can describe how much to give to charity, possibly keep the estate under the federal estate tax limit?” Kevin, this feels like a question for you.

Kevin Wick: Yes, the answer is definitely yes. And it’s a way of developing and building a very flexible estate plan. So you can tie the ultimate giving to a potential tax obligation, like an estate tax obligation, and allow your executor to, and direct him or her to make a gift that would minimize or eliminate a future tax liability. And then it’s thinking through how would that charitable gift look like? Are you directing a list of charities to choose from, are you giving that authority directly to the executor? You’ve got a lot of options in that regard, but that does develop a very flexible plan which is something that is very helpful over the long term.

Talli Sperry: That’s great. Flexibility is always a good thing, right?

So along those same lines, Robert is asking us, “If I have no heirs, how do I ensure my family foundation will go on?” Al, what do you hear from clients in this space?

Al Weikel: Well, you know, a lot of times with a family foundation or a private foundation, they need to do the hard work upfront to get everybody involved and wanting to put the work in because it involves some work.

Talli Sperry: It does.

Al Weikel: I mean, there’s tax filing to it. There’s some IRS regulation to a private foundation, so it’s really making sure that the family is fully involved because I’ve seen situations with private foundations where, if the heirs weren’t involved, they don’t necessarily want to spend a lot of their time then doing that; and that’s, obviously, not optimal. So I think it’s that involvement early again and education and appreciation of the varied interests that can help you be successful.

Talli Sperry: So in foundations, it seems like people have to decide as a family if they want a little bit of a work, right, if they want work and a little bit of a job with it.

Kevin Wick: And if it’s a situation like the question there where they don’t have heirs, as he mentions, then it’s working into the documents a mechanism for building a group that will actually manage it later on. Typically a foundation is run by a Board of Directors, but the documents can provide for how we’re going to elect a future board. And if that’s not an option, then there’s certainly opportunities to partner with other charitable organizations; and they will help work alongside or even absorb that foundation into their work.

So whether it’s looking for other individuals in your sphere of influence or whether it’s looking to another bigger charity to help carry that cause going forward, there’s definitely options.

Talli Sperry: It really seems like Robert does have a lot of options, and they’re good options too, so that’s exciting.

Jane Greenfield: If I could add one more.

Talli Sperry: Yeah.

Jane Greenfield: If he wanted to move from a foundation over to a donor-advised fund, when our donors list their succession plan, about 75% of them do list heirs, family members, etc. But some of them list charities. Sometimes they want us to send out a lump sum at their death to a charity or charities, but other times they set up a plan where we give to those charities over time. So it actually, in essence, continues over time after their death.

Talli Sperry: I love that we get so many options for giving and really constructing decision-making and also a plan that works for us and for everyone in our lives. It’s exciting, it really is.

We have a question from Daniel, and he’s asking, “Can I put my RMD directly into a donor-advised fund, and how does that work?”

Jane Greenfield: Well today, no. Do you want to start with that, and then I’ll pile on at the end?

Kevin Wick: Yeah, certainly. There is a feature under the tax code that was adopted just a few years ago that allows you to put some or all of your RMD, depending on what level that distribution is. An RMD is a required minimum distribution that individuals who have an IRA, a traditional IRA as opposed to a Roth, if they reach the age of 70-1/2, then the IRS requires that a certain amount of that account be withdrawn each year. That’s the required minimum distribution.

And Congress has adopted what’s known as the qualified charitable distribution, QCD, and that is an opportunity if you’re of that age and you’re required to take money out, you can direct up to $100,000 to a qualified charity each year; and that has to be done from your IRA provider directly to the charity in order for this to qualify in the most tax-efficient way. And in doing so, that money that goes to the charity, then the individual no longer has to claim that as income.

Now you don’t get a charitable deduction for that because you haven’t paid tax on the money that came out –

Talli Sperry: Makes sense.

Kevin Wick: – but that is a very efficient way to utilize those dollars if you happen to be in that kind of situation.

Jane Greenfield: Now, unfortunately, although donor-advised funds are charities, it does not include donor-advised funds today. And we get a lot of questions from our donors on that. In fact, if you go to the Vanguard Charitable website and you go down to the bottom of the home page on the left-

Talli Sperry: And that’s that green Resource widget.

Jane Greenfield: That’s the green Resource widget, you’ll see that we just recently did an article on RMDs on this very topic because we do get so many questions.

The good news is the conversation is going on in Washington as to whether donor-advised funds should be included going forward. In fact, there was a recent act that was introduced called the Charity Act, and that’s one of the key elements of the act, to include DAFs going forward. So we’re hopeful.

Al Weikel: Yeah, and Jane, I would just add, you’re right, it’s unfortunate the donor-advised funds aren’t eligible, but field of interest funds are.

Jane Greenfield: They are.

Al Weikel: And I believe Vanguard Charitable has the Sustainable Disaster Recovery Fund which is-

Jane Greenfield: We do, they do.

Talli Sperry: Very timely.

Al Weikel: Yes, exactly.

Jane Greenfield: It feels right about now. Yes, it’s very timely. So, yes, we do have that; and we actually have that because we did have donors say, “You know, well, we trust you, Vanguard Charitable, to create a field of interest fund; and we want to be able to do this with our QCD.”

Talli Sperry: It’s a beautiful approach and, as you said, very timely. These are great questions. Please keep them coming. They’ve been really insightful and thoughtful, and I think they’re getting us into a good discussion.

So we’ve talked a lot about what you put in, how you structure estate plan. We have a question from Lucy and she’s asking, “With a donor-advised fund, are you required to give away a certain amount each year?” So are you required to pull out a certain amount?

Jane Greenfield: Happy to answer that. Lucy, thank you for the question. I love all the questions on donor-advised funds I have to admit. No, there’s no requirement to pull, to grant a certain amount out of your account every year. And it’s a great question that Lucy asks because on the private foundation side, there is a requirement to grant out 5% per year.

Talli Sperry: So this is a differentiator.

Jane Greenfield: It is.

Talli Sperry: Some people were asking donor-advised fund versus foundation what’s the difference? This is one of those, right?

Jane Greenfield: It is one of those. It allows you to be just a little bit more strategic and planful because, you know, I talk to donors who have great plans for the money and where it’s going to go and where they’re donating, but it may not necessarily be 5% per year. It could be 2% this year or 0% this year and 10% next year. So the flexibility that the DAF affords a philanthropist is great.

Talli Sperry: So knowing what you want to do with the assets and where you want to give can also help you decide vehicles.

Jane Greenfield: Absolutely.

Kevin Wick: And that flexibility allows for some interplay between clients who may have a foundation but uncertain of how they’re going to or where they want to direct that required 5% each year. And that’s where a donor-advised fund can work hand in hand. A foundation can actually distribute its 5% required distribution to the donor-advised fund, and that satisfies that obligation and now you’ve funded a donor-advised fund account that you can then turn around in a timeframe that works for you to the ultimate charities.

Talli Sperry: So this is that multiple vehicle approach that we asked in our question. That’s one example of how you can use the two together.

Jane Greenfield: But I’m going to add on, as Kevin knows, I’ll just do the pile-on there, that that is being reviewed and that opportunity to leverage a donor-advised fund contribution to meet the 5% on the private foundation side could very well go away. So today—

Talli Sperry: So there’s a lot of flex.

Jane Greenfield: Legally today you can do it, but going forward who knows.

Talli Sperry: So today for sure. We just have to keep our minds open for the future, right?

Kevin Wick: Correct.

Talli Sperry: Okay, good. Good clarifying. So let’s jump to a few more of our questions which have been presubmitted, and please keep those live ones coming in as well. So we’ve got a question from William in Bonita Springs, Florida, and we are certainly thinking of you today, “How can I effectively use my RMD to fund my charitable giving?” So we talked about that a little bit, but he asks, “Are there limits to the amount I can give in one tax year?” Kevin.

Kevin Wick: Yeah, and that’s where that $100,000 limit comes into play. So it starts with what is the amount of your RMD? And so when it comes to your charitable contribution, it’s connected to your RMD. But the limit that the IRS allows you to do so in a tax-advantaged way is $100,000. That’s that direct from IRA to the qualified charity.

Now, realistically, you could always take the money out, take your RMD or additional dollars if you chose to and, ultimately, give that money to charity. But what’s required in that step is you take the money out, you pay taxes on what you’ve taken out, and then turn around and deliver those to charity. And so the more tax-efficient way I guess might be one way to describe it would be to utilize that QCD, that qualified charitable distribution, if that applies to your situation.

Talli Sperry: That’s helpful. And since we’re along the lines of qualified charitable distributions and getting expertise from Kevin in these areas, we have a question from Eric, so thank you, Eric, and he’s saying that we currently have a charitable remainder unitrust. We’d like to create a donor-advised fund to receive the proceeds at the end of the CRUT term. How do we do that?

Kevin Wick: Certainly. Real quick a charitable remainder unitrust is one of those charitable trusts we described earlier at the outset. It’s a specific version in which a charitable is receiving the remainder, the distribution at the end of the term of this trust, and a qualified charity is required to receive that remainder in order for that tool to work. And, certainly, a donor-advised fund could be that ultimate recipient of some or all of that remainder that comes out of that CRUT.

Talli Sperry: So that’s the linkage.

Kevin Wick: That’s the linkage, exactly. And depending on how that trust document was drafted, there may be flexibility to change or perhaps there wasn’t even a charity named at that point. Maybe there’s a mechanism to name it in the future. But it’ll be looking at the document itself perhaps working with your attorney or your advisor to determine, if it’s not there already, how do I make a change, can I make a change in order to direct it in that fashion.

Talli Sperry: That’s very, very helpful. Sometimes these multiple vehicles are complicated, but I hope that you’re seeing they’re very doable together and they actually make sense together in many moments.

So we put money in, we’ve talked about vehicles we’re using. When we start to think about gifting, I have a question from Fred, and he’s asking, “Can you help me evaluate the effectiveness and efficiency of charities in delivering great results for their beneficiaries?” Al, could you talk a little bit about how you see clients decide where to give and how to evaluate a charity to make sure that it’s solid enough to benefit their giving plan?

Al Weikel: Sure, absolutely. Well, in working with clients, a lot of times what they’ll look for first in charities is that they’re, first, effectively governed, that they’re transparent, that they’re accountable, that they’re financially responsible, and that they’re aligned with their core values. And if that’s the case, they find these types of organizations generally they’ll look at four things. They’ll look at strategy and results, so what is the charity’s strategy? Is it broad or is it narrow? Is it narrow enough to actually get something done and have impact or is it too broad? Goals, do they have goals? Do they have a way of tracking their goals? Not all charities are good at really being able to measure effectiveness, so you want to see if the charity has measurable goals.

Talli Sperry: They’re making a difference.

Al Weikel: Exactly. Exactly. Next is leadership. So, you know, is the leader inspiring the staff? Is the leader attracting good people? Sometimes if it’s tough to find out if they have goals and measurable goals, get to know the organization. If there’s a board, is the board engaged with management? So a lot of things around leadership are really good to look into to see when you’re doing your due diligence with these charities.

Next would be financials. Is the charity sustainable? Perhaps one of the very important things to look for is a diverse funding stream. Right? If they’re too reliant on say one particular donor, that’s not good for sustainability purposes. So you want to make sure there’s multiple sources of funding.

And the other thing I would say is on overhead costs. A lot of people make the comment that they want to make sure every dollar is going towards the cause, and I would just caution that a little bit to say that sometimes, you know, an earlier, an establishing charity will be investing in financial software or adequate workspace or things that are creating overhead costs but it’s in by no means a way of measuring the effectiveness of how they’re actually taking care of the causes that they care about.

Talli Sperry: Because those things could help the mission move forward. And I know international charities, sometimes they have more overhead, right?

Al Weikel: That’s exactly right. So don’t put too much emphasis on that overhead. Get to know that leadership and their strategies and their causes.

And, lastly, it’s looking at the organization itself, the structure, the processes, and perhaps most importantly, the culture of the organization to see if that’s something you want to donate your money towards.

Talli Sperry: Really helpful.

Kevin Wick: I would offer another thought, if I can.

Talli Sperry: Absolutely.

Kevin Wick: On a more kind of foundational level, if you can and if it works, if it’s a local charity, donate your time. Get involved and work with them.

Talli Sperry: Get to know them.

Kevin Wick: Get to know them. Even better, get your kids involved as we were talking about earlier.

Talli Sperry: Yes, good.

Kevin Wick: Allow them to spend some time there and get a feel for how they’re actually working sort of on the ground.

Talli Sperry: We really can get in the mix with these charities in more than just a check, can’t we?

Kevin Wick: Yeah.

Talli Sperry: Yeah, absolutely.

Al Weikel: I agree. I have one more point on that because you make a great point. It’s a site visit. A lot of clients will sort of finesse their due diligence approach based on the level of grant. You know, if it’s not a major grant, they’re not going to do too much homework here. If it’s a major grant, absolutely, they’ll do a lot of homework. And a site visit, to your point, with the family and/or the individual is a great way to go to get to know the organization.

Talli Sperry: Awesome. So we have one live question and then I do want to get back to some of those presubmitted; they’re just as important. So the live question Raymond is asking, “Do charitable tax deductions phase out above certain income levels?” So this is an interesting one. This is a unique one for us, so thank you.

Kevin Wick: Yeah, the shorter answer is yes. So based on your adjusted gross income, based on your income levels for a given year, those deductions actually can phase out as your income increases. They’re known as the Pease limitations. And that’ll vary a little bit in each individual’s tax circumstance, but the concept is good to be aware of and the answer is yes. To the extent that you might have those limitations come into play and your deductions phase out in a given year, you’re generally able to carry those deductions forward for a period of up to five years. So it doesn’t mean they’re necessarily lost, but it is an opportunity to do some strategical tax planning based on income in a given year and the amount of donations, the amount of charitable gifts you might make in a given year with that in mind.

Talli Sperry: Very helpful. So keep those live questions coming. And while you’re thinking of your questions and sending them in, we’ll do a question from Rowan from Little Compton, Rhode Island. So Rowan is asking, “Can we discuss donor-advised funds versus setting up a foundation for heirs assuming there’s pretty significant funding available?” So, Jane, could you respond to that?

Jane Greenfield: Sure. So I would say there’s a few different things you need to think about as you’re considering the tool for heirs. And I would say if you answer a few questions, you might either determine that the private foundation is the route for the donor-advised fund.

So the first question would be if there’s any heir who wants income from working on charitable giving, that is a great thing for a private foundation. A donor-advised fund cannot pay an individual. If you have a fairly complex, customized investment strategy that you’d like in a separately managed account, that’s more likely for a private foundation than for a donor-advised fund. So there are a few things that might point you toward the direction of the private foundation.

If those don’t apply, the donor-advised fund really is a tool that is easy to use, very low cost, very tax effective, etc. So for those reasons, and also for a few others, I think a lot of people tend to go the donor-advised fund route. That’s why it’s the fast growing charitable vehicle out there.

Another reason why a lot of people and their heirs really like the donor-advised fund is because you can grant anonymously. With a private foundation, any grant you make is listed in the 990. There’s no ability to be anonymous. And a lot of our clients really like the ability to be anonymous. It doesn’t mean that they are granting anonymously. Most of our grants are not anonymous, but having that option is really, really helpful.

Talli Sperry: The option, yeah.

Jane Greenfield: And then I’ll go back to something you said earlier, Talli, which is it’s a differentiator to be able to be a little bit more strategic and planful and not have to hit the 5% every year, but be able to think through how you want to deliver a number of years the granting dollars.

Talli Sperry: We’re really looking at granting over a lifetime, right?

Jane Greenfield: You really are.

Talli Sperry: We’re looking at charitable giving as part of a lifestyle and way of live versus just a moment in time.

Jane Greenfield: Exactly.

Talli Sperry: Yeah. So kind of along the lines of donor-advised funds, we have a question from Edward. So he’s saying, “When I donate to a foundation, I get 100% deduction.” And he’s asking, “What percentage do I get if I contribute to a donor-advised fund?” So, I know, Jane, you had said when we contribute we get the deduction right then. And then, can you talk about do we get anything when we actually do the granting? Do we get any deduction then?

Jane Greenfield: No. The deduction is taken on the way in and not the way out. And, actually—

Talli Sperry: And that’s still 100%.

Jane Greenfield: 100%.

Talli Sperry: Either way.

Jane Greenfield: Absolutely, which is nice because then it goes back to the power of the tool, which is the separation of the tax deduction from the granting decision. So when you’re doing your tax planning, we have clients, for example, who may have the sale of a business or they may have a particularly large bonus. How nice to get the full tax deduction this year and be really thoughtful and planful about where to grant that over time.

Talli Sperry: That’s great. So it seems like we’ll always get 100% on the deduction. It’s just the timing of when we get it. And that can be part of our choice.

Kevin Wick: Yeah, just to tie in the question earlier about limitations, always get 100% of what you contribute, but how much you can deduct in a given year will certainly vary. Whether you’re making cash contributions, that’s generally at 100%. If you’re making contributions of appreciated securities, that’s a smaller threshold for that year that you can donate, or that you can deduct, rather. But, again, those are things that you can carry forward. So those are things that you’ll need to look at closely given your own individual tax circumstance.

Talli Sperry: Lot of detail there.

Kevin Wick: Right.

Talli Sperry: Yeah. So we’ve alluded to a few times just, you know, the fact that there’s a lot going on in the world today. And along those lines, we have a presubmitted question from Debbie from Oakland so thank you. And she’s asking a really hard question, “Do you advise to donate to local or national groups after a crisis?” So I’ll throw that out to any of you. Anybody interested in chiming in?

Jane Greenfield: I’d be happy to at least jump in and start.

Talli Sperry: Great.

Jane Greenfield: So very timely question, and I’ll use Hurricane Harvey as an example. So if you know local charities in Houston and you know that they have the funds they need and they are working on the ground, then absolutely donate to them. If you’re looking for someone to help you figure out how to get the money to hurricane victims, sometimes, well, for example, Vanguard Charitable has provided a list of charities, they are national charities, that are on the ground doing that work.

What we did is we reached out to these organizations to say, “Are you there, what are you doing, and do you need the money?” so that we could direct our clients on how to give and give quickly.

Talli Sperry: And that list, is that on Vanguard Charitable?

Jane Greenfield: It is. It is. When you go onto vanguardcharitable.org and you go to the top.

Talli Sperry: Green resource widget.

Jane Greenfield: Green resource widget. You go to the top, you’ll see the message there. Click on that and you can see the list.

Talli Sperry: So those are some really good suggestions. So I know Debbie was asking for some advice. And we can’t fully give advice there. Obviously, Debbie, that’s per your passion. But it is really good to, to Al’s point in our discussion earlier, really look at the details. And it’s really exciting that Vanguard is able to help us think that through. Do we have any tools, any other tools in addition to that?

Jane Greenfield: To evaluate charities?

Talli Sperry: Um-hmm.

Jane Greenfield: Absolutely. So if you go to vanguardcharitable.org, green widget, and you go to the Resource tab and click on Effective Granting, you’ll see a number of links that provide information on different nonprofits that will allow you to do some of the research that Al referred to.

I would like to highlight, though, something that we just launched for our clients, our donors, just literally three ago.

Talli Sperry: So these are for people who have Vanguard Charitable accounts that have donor-advised funds.

Jane Greenfield: Exactly. So we just launched a tool that our clients can access whether they’re granting or not. While they’re granting, it’s embedded in the granting process.

Talli Sperry: That’s incredible.

Jane Greenfield: And it’s called the GuideStar national nonprofit directory. And it’s a great tool to allow you to find a charity that you might be interested in researching, then research that charity. And then you can always come back after you grant and look at how they’re doing so you can really assess whether you’re backing the right horse.

Talli Sperry: So this occurs right through the granting process as you’re actually walking through in the moment just in time.

Jane Greenfield: Yes, you can access all this information right there. Or if you’re not in the process of granting, you can always do this legwork, take a little look at the information. And if you kind of like what you see with the charity, you can always click directly on a button that says, “Save charity” and then it’s right in your granting stream so that if you choose to give in the future, you can. But there’s 12 different filters that will allow you to filter to really hone in to identify a short list of charities that you can then evaluate.

And the information that’s given is tremendous. GuideStar, who is our partner in this, has provided information from a variety of different sources, including the IRS, and including information directly from the nonprofit itself. We’re the first donor-advised fund to launch this product or this tool, and it’s available to our donors free of charge.

Talli Sperry: And it sounds like you could potentially even sort the charities that you were interested, save them, and then bring back your heirs or your smaller children to help them be part of that research process.

Jane Greenfield: Well, I love the way you think, Talli. That’s exactly right.

Talli Sperry: I like giving, you all know that.

Jane Greenfield: Exactly.

Kevin Wick: I love the question. It’s indication, I mean our clients are so very thoughtful and certainly it’s timely given the circumstances we’ve been hit with in recent weeks. But the idea of looking for a way to be very effective with your giving and in a timely way in a short amount of time I know that’s behind that kind of question and the thoughts a lot of our clients have.

Talli Sperry: Very thoughtful.

Jane Greenfield: Yeah. And it used to be, I think it used to be that people would just look at a couple of pieces of information. They’d look at, you know, where the money is going from an administrative expense perspective. And they’d look at the highest paid individuals at the charity, and they’d make their decision based on that.

Talli Sperry: And it’s more complex.

Jane Greenfield: It’s so much more complex than that.

Talli Sperry: So much more.

Jane Greenfield: And I think there has been a mindset shift to that. It’s no longer than pantyhose chart of if you’re height is this and your weight is this, this is the answer. It’s much more complex. And so we are really thrilled that our donors- I can speak to the fact that our donors really sweat the details on this and they take—

Talli Sperry: They care. Really care.

Jane Greenfield: They care deeply about giving well.

Talli Sperry: Which we really commend you for truly.

So let’s take a couple more of our questions before we’ll need to move into final thoughts. So, Al, could you compare giving options such as giving stocks and bonds versus liquidating them versus giving cash?

Al Weikel: Sure. And we’ve been sort of dancing around this question a little bit.

Talli Sperry: We have.

Al Weikel: Yeah, I mean those are the two most common things we’ll see is appreciated securities and/or cash. And for cash, somebody can check me on this, for a public charity, it’s actually 50% of income or AGI, and for appreciated securities, it’s 305. For a private charity, actually, the levels are a little bit different. It’s 30% for cash and 20% for appreciated securities. So you definitely want to consult a qualified tax professional, and that’s where I think Kevin alluded to it earlier, where people will do some planning of how much appreciated securities, how much cash.

I will say that, to Kevin’s point, there is a five-year where you can carry that forward if it wasn’t deductible. And, also, just one other caveat, those appreciated securities, whether they be equities, fixed income, ETFs, mutual funds, have to be held for over a year. So you can’t get rid of short-term gains that way.

Talli Sperry: A really important point.

Al Weikel: You can avoid the tax on the long-term gains. Again, it has to be over a year. But then appreciated securities are a fantastic asset to gift to charity.

Jane Greenfield: And that’s a great point, just to put a fine point on that, donor-advised funds are public charities so they have the 50% and 30% versus the private foundation.

Talli Sperry: So we’ve got one more question around donor-advised funds since we’re kind of playing in this space. Lisa is asking, and I’ll throw this one to you because you can perhaps digest what you see some of your ultra-high net-worth clients do. She’s asking, “What happens to a donor-advised fund at my death? What options do I have?” So where could it go?

Al Weikel: Yeah. I’ll start there and then probably turn that over to Jane. A lot of people will, again, include the family in that plan and name successor trustees to take over and manage the fund, which is perfectly acceptable. But there’s other options if you pass away to no heirs – Kevin, thank you for saving me on that earlier – where you can set up a certain amount to be distributed over a year, say 10% a year over ten years. So there’s multiple options. There’s several different ways you can do that in a way that’s going to best fit your needs. And, Jane, I don’t know if you want to elaborate on some of the more specific.

Jane Greenfield: Yeah. No, I think you’ve hit them. There’s only one other point I’d make. There’s about 8% of our accounts have listed a philanthropic impact fund as the place that they want their money to go after death. And that’s a fund that our board of trustees oversees—

Talli Sperry: Wow!

Jane Greenfield: -and we look at how to grant annually to ensure that we are really investing in the infrastructure of charitable giving. How do we make donors more effective donors, how do we make nonprofits more effective nonprofits? So we do have that option as well if you’re not sure which charities you want to put as your successors or you’re worried that they may change over time and you don’t have heirs that you want to list as well.

Talli Sperry: Jane, I just want to go back to what you said. I think something’s really impressive there and that’s that Vanguard charitable is looking to make nonprofits more effective nonprofits. Could you elaborate a little bit on that?

Jane Greenfield: Sure. Well, if you look at our mission, it’s to increase philanthropy and maximize its impact over time. And, really, our way, the biggest way that we can increase philanthropy is through the generosity of our donors, but we do want to play a role as well. We do have an opportunity to talk to a lot of nonprofits as well as a lot of donors. And because of that, we get a sense as to what some of the needs might be out there.

Talli Sperry: And you spend a lot of time doing that, don’t you?

Jane Greenfield: I do.

Talli Sperry: Yeah.

Jane Greenfield: I do, which makes my job the best job ever. On the donor side, what we hear a lot from our donors is, “It’s a big responsibility to give and give well. So every once in a while it’d be nice to have a little help.” And so as I talked about our resource tab on vanguardcharitable.org, in our brand new release to our clients, we really consistently think about how do we help our donors be great donors?

On the nonprofit side, they have a lot of challenges themselves. And so we do try to think about are there ways that we could help nonprofits be more effective, whether it’s capacity building or something like that? So we do try to leverage the information that we get on a daily basis to do more for the sector.

Talli Sperry: I really appreciated this discussion because I think sometimes charitable giving is something we all want to do, but it’s complex and sometimes it can feel hard. So it’s wonderful to know that there are many options and that some of them are actually pretty enjoyable.

Jane Greenfield: Yeah.

Speaker: Absolutely.

Talli Sperry: Kind of along those lines, I’d like to take a question from Kurt from Massillon, Ohio. And so Kurt is asking us, “Is it wiser to give a CRAT or a CRUT or a CLAT or simply to give annually to a favorite charity?” So, Kevin, I’m feeling this is a question for you.

Jane Greenfield: Wow, that’s a mouthful.

Kevin Wick: Yes.

Talli Sperry: It is a mouthful.

Kevin Wick: A lot of good acronyms in there. Those acronyms all stand for a different kind of charitable trust. The answer to the question of is it wiser, that’s going to be very dependent on your own circumstances and what you’re giving and when, timeframes, all of that. But there’s certainly a difference and your direct annual giving is as simple as that. You’re giving every year an amount to a charity that you choose.

With the charitable trust, be it the CRAT, the CLUT, whatever the case might be, you’re involving a charity and then also another party. That can be yourself, that can be a spouse, it can be family members. Generally you’ve got two pieces to a charitable trust. One is an income stream and then you’ve got a remainder, a balance of assets that are left after this trust has lived for whatever period of time you might choose. And those two pieces can go to individuals and charity. And you can pick front/back, income, remainder, whatever the case might be, but it all comes back to what your long-term goals are, what the purposes of your charitable giving are, what kind of assets you’re looking to contribute. A lot of times the charitable trusts are very useful if you have highly appreciated assets – real estate, stocks, whatever the case might be. It may be a very strategic tool in that circumstance, but there are plenty of different areas where each of those tools would be appropriate, but there’s a difference.

Talli Sperry: So, again, options.

Al Weikel: And, Kevin, if you would, comment on sort of in a low interest rate environment. We’ve had low interest rates for some time now so those charitable trusts are worth comment.

Kevin Wick: Definitely. And an option, again, to be very strategic in the choice of planning tool so that that income stream is often defined by or related to current interest rates. And with low interest rates, the income stream tends to be a little bit lower which increases our remainder typically over time. And in that instance, you might be able to give more to a charity at the end with that remainder. And, certainly, it’s an opportunity to do some strategic planning with the environment that we’re in today.

Talli Sperry: So watching the environment can be helpful if you’re trying to plan in the short term. A little harder to predict long term, but if you’re trying to do something right now can be helpful.

Al Weikel: Absolutely.

Talli Sperry: So let’s take a question. Tom in West Chester is really starting to talk about legacy gifts at death. So how do we think about children’s inheritance versus charitable bequeaths? So we get a lot of complex questions about giving to children and setting expectations.

Kevin Wicks: Definitely. I think, first, about it’s kind of a bucket approach that we talk to clients a lot about is, ultimately, when you’re talking about passing your wealth on to the next generation, you’ve got essentially three choices. One is your family, children, whoever it is; charity is another one; and then, depending on your asset level, taxes may be a third one. And those three buckets kind of are intertwined. As we’ve talked about, there’s ways to be strategic in your lifetime and on death giving absolutely. And it’s an opportunity to really work closely with your advisors and develop goals, first and foremost, and develop a plan that is centered around those goals and figure out what’s going to work best.

A lot of times clients will ask, “What too much to give to my kids?” And that’s, again, one of those balancing issues. How much do I pass on to kids, grandkids, whatever the case might be versus what I give to charity? Very unique individual—

Talli Sperry: Personal preference, yes.

Kevin Wicks: Personal preference, individual decision for every family circumstance. But those are the kinds of things to be thinking about in balancing those factors.

Talli Sperry: And having those conversations with your family as soon as you can so that they can plan their lives too, right?

Jane Greenfield: Yeah.

Talli Sperry: You have a number of clients.

Jane Greenfield: If the kids are not getting much at your death, they should probably know that so that they know that they’re on their own in terms of making their own income.

Talli Sperry: That’s great. Well, I really genuinely wish we could go on, but it does look like we’ve run out of time. so thank you so much for sharing your insights.

So do you have any final thoughts before we actually sign off?

Kevin Wick: I’d encourage our clients to continue to be careful and thoughtful as they generally are in their giving. It’s an opportunity, as we’ve talked about, to really kind of train and transfer a lot of very good values to your kids, to your grandkids by getting them involved, as Jane mentioned before, early and often in your charitable giving. And that can result in a transfer of very important values that’s hard to do in some other aspects. But this is an area of getting the family involved in charitable giving that can really have a long-term impact on both the transfer of your own wealth but even how they’re going to operate in their own financial lives later on.

Talli Sperry: We definitely see clients find it’s the perfect way to get a legacy to continue past that third generation. So this is really important stuff. Jane, anything from you?

Jane Greenfield: My final thought would just be to thank the clients at Vanguard who are tuning in tonight because, obviously, charitable giving is important enough to them that they’re spending an hour with us. And it’s really important to the nonprofits they serve. They need those funds and donations more than ever, so a big thank you.

Talli Sperry: That is well said. I think we would all second that.

Al Weikel: Yes, agreed. And I would just close with, you know, philanthropy is just so beneficial to families. It’s the way to make the world a better place and strengthen your family at the same time. So that’s a win/win in my book.

Talli Sperry: It’s a beautiful opportunity. It’s quite incredible really. So thank you. And thank you for joining us tonight.

If you have enjoyed tonight’s webcast, please consider joining me for our next ultra-high net-worth webcast. That one will be on wealth and estate planning and it’ll take place on December 14 at 7:00 PM.

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So from all of us here at Vanguard, we’d like to thank you for joining us this evening. Good night.

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